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Post by woznorthyorksexile on Oct 11, 2024 15:34:29 GMT
All governments get the bad news out of the way early in the term to allow for giveaways (or a Falklands war) closer to the next election. With the Tory choices, reminiscent of going for Hague and Duncan-Smith, the only way that Labour lose the next election, short of WW3, is to go too far to the left. Never has worked and never will. Too many still think that the ruling class, God bless Boris, will take all the nasty decisions and keep them poor but happy. How do you define too far to the left? It was a left-wing Labour Government that introduced the NHS, Left-wing Harold Wilson formed two Governments. The fear of "Socialism" is often given as the reason why people don't vote Labour. Ask them to define "Socialism" and believe me, the conversation will be a short one.
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Post by dudleyhatter on Oct 11, 2024 15:48:29 GMT
Socialism is the UK version of US communism.
Basically anything that will help anybody else. (who is not already a billionaire)
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Post by woznorthyorksexile on Oct 11, 2024 16:30:13 GMT
I genuinely don't know because, if you ask them what their experience of the consequences of socialist policies is, confusion quickly sets in. Until, that is, you ask them how often they've used the NHS, or point out that one of the reasons their experience with the dentist is such an expensive one, is that the principles of socialism were overturned by Thatcher, who effectively privatised it. Unfortunately, the current iteration of the Labour Party has given up the argument.
I don't know how the party seeks to justify re-nationalisation of public transport, but not the provision of an essential commodity like water. Until that is, you appreciate that the the report on which the decision is based, was paid for by the water companies. Perhaps I'm doing the Labour Party a disservice and maybe the decision was taken solely by the Environment Secretary who was recently treated to £1700 worth of hospitality, paid for by a water company, it's so difficult to tell these days since what you or I may call blatant in-your-face corruption seems to be considered a perk of the job by the political classes.
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Post by archie on Oct 11, 2024 17:13:57 GMT
How do you define too far to the left? Michael Foot or Jeremy Corbyn.
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Post by woznorthyorksexile on Oct 11, 2024 17:43:58 GMT
I'd tend to agree with reference to Michael Foot however I don't fall for the myths and hysteria perpetuated by the right-wing press about Corbyn's politics. He believed in comprehensive social welfare with the emphasis placed on publicly provided social services and investment in child care, education and research among others, that are funded by progressive taxation, emphasis on progressive. He was also a proponent of strong labour market institutions with active labour unions and employer associations which allow for significant collective bargaining, wage negotiations and coordination besides an active role in governance and policy.
What I've just described is generally recognised as Scandinavian style Social Democracy. I'm not sure anyone would use the word socialist as a derogatory term to describe Sweden or Norway. Prosperous maybe, but definitely not socialist. In comparison to some of the wingnuts who have left this country in its present state after 14 years of Tory rule, Corbyn looks like the voice of reason.
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Post by gazz on Oct 11, 2024 18:22:41 GMT
Unfortunately, Wilson wouldn't stand a chance today, Yorks.
I believe the misconceptions regarding socialism is mainly down to a massive imbalance in printed media, the public have been brainwashed.
Novelty toilet paper like "your soaraway S*n" have manipulated the political landscape in this country, disguising themselves as for 'the man in the street', 'giving away' cheap holidays, bingo prizes and other tat to gain the trust of its readership - 'look at the shiny, shiny!'
You've only got to hark back to how its owner was able to buy The Times to see where it all started to shift. You know who left something large under the table, someone else pocketed it underneath said table, that horse-faced old bag gave the acquisition the green light and that was that.
The media is responsible for where we are now, they've had far too much of their own way, but it's too late to change that now.
Country's f***ed.
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Post by archie on Oct 12, 2024 8:17:49 GMT
As Labour found in the past and the Tories are about to, their method of choosing a party leader is flawed. It's fine in principle to give party members the final say but, in practice, the leader has a hopeless task if he/she doesn't command the support of the majority of MPs. Using the party members to pick a final 2 and giving the MPs the final vote gives the illusion that the winner has support in parliament.
Party members are just about the worst people to judge who might bring in neutrals at a general election because they are so sure that their view is the only truth that they are incapable of seeing other viewpoints. Most MPs are pragmatic enough to realise that an unelectable party leader will see many of them on the dole.
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Post by gazz on Oct 12, 2024 8:28:12 GMT
As Labour found in the past and the Tories are about to, their method of choosing a party leader is flawed. It's fine in principle to give party members the final say but, in practice, the leader has a hopeless task if he/she doesn't command the support of the majority of MPs. Using the party members to pick a final 2 and giving the MPs the final vote gives the illusion that the winner has support in parliament. Party members are just about the worst people to judge who might bring in neutrals at a general election because they are so sure that their view is the only truth that they are incapable of seeing other viewpoints. Most MPs are pragmatic enough to realise that an unelectable party leader will see many of them on the dole. Not forgetting the 'get behind me and I'll give you a/you can keep your job' that obviously goes on, which also shows that while many MPs start out with ambitions to serve, a lot of them end up just in it for themselves.
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Post by woznorthyorksexile on Oct 12, 2024 18:23:52 GMT
As Labour found in the past and the Tories are about to, their method of choosing a party leader is flawed. It's fine in principle to give party members the final say but, in practice, the leader has a hopeless task if he/she doesn't command the support of the majority of MPs. Using the party members to pick a final 2 and giving the MPs the final vote gives the illusion that the winner has support in parliament. Party members are just about the worst people to judge who might bring in neutrals at a general election because they are so sure that their view is the only truth that they are incapable of seeing other viewpoints. Most MPs are pragmatic enough to realise that an unelectable party leader will see many of them on the dole. The PLP recognised that an MP who has made a virtue out of voting against his own Party was equally incapable of the kind of collective responsibility required of a Party Leader in opposition, never mind in Government. As you point out, those amongst the Labour membership who supported Corbyn could not, and indeed, many still haven't been able to forgive the PLP for undermining their man. Lillian Greenwood's statement explaining her reasons for resigning her role in Corbyn's shadow cabinet is quite revealing:- www.ukpol.co.uk/lilian-greenwood-2016-statement-on-resignation/Not sure all MP's know best though lol. I was amused to read that the Guardian had spoken to a supporter of Tugendhat and was expected to transfer his vote to Cleverley after Tugendhat was removed from the ballot. Such is the dislike of Jenrick amongst the centre of the Tory Party, or at least what is left of it, this particular unnamed MP voted for Badenoch in the confident expectation that Jenrick would be the loser in the next round. Oops! One can but imagine his surprise to discover that he wasn't alone and Cleverley got dumped out in the next round despite being an apparent shoo-in.
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