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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 11:45:11 GMT
Sorry, Herm, you can post all the pass maps you like - you and guys like that are seriously over-analysing this. But they're so pretty! You're right, H - they can stay!  |
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 11:47:24 GMT
I don't think they should get an open top bus parade. I just think we did ok. We're not one of the best teams in the world, and got further than lots of teams who've got much better players to choose from. For years, we've been moaning about not giving young players a chance, picking people based on reputation, playing people out of position to accommodate the big names etc. Now we've got what we wanted and reached a semi final, I think that's ok and we're going in the right direction. Yup. There's the wider footballing context of having absolutely nothing at all to be proud of in the national sport for years and that's been coupled in recent times with a division within the country overall. Hopefully no-one feels proud of losing but I understand, and feel, a bit of pride in seeing mostly young and inexperienced (internationally) players give their best and buy into something. It's a huge contrast to previous sides. It doesn't make them good, great or anything like that and an open-top parade is a bit bizarre. Perhaps it is that wider context though, rather than any reaching of a semi-final, that has brought about those feelings in some people? I think that's a fair summing up, H. |
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Post by Epworth Hatter on Jul 12, 2018 12:16:00 GMT
There was an interesting comment from Ian Dennis on the radio this morning. He was asked why he thought England were getting all this praise. He said it was because the players and manager had been open and accessible to the press and it had reconnected with them with the public.
A few observations on that observation:
1. They have been well advised to be more accessible to the press and Gareth Southgate was clever in doing that. However, they are all on silly money and will go back to their clubs as aloof spoilt brats with whom no one can connect. Southgate has engineered positive press and that is how the public has responded.
2. The reason for the positivity is nothing to do with footballing skill and tactics. If we judge our success on how media friendly the players are, we'd be World Cup winners. But we don't and, from what I saw, we were technically poor and tactically one-dimensional. Of course, we can have pride in exceeding expectations in one tournament, but there is no evidence it wasn't a one-off (a la Greece 2004). I saw an article in praise of Jordan Henderson this morning. Seriously? He misplaced every other pass. But he's a nice guy with the journos, so that's alright then.
The only hope is from the U16, U17 & U21 squads. But unless they are playing regular football at the highest level, it will all come to nought. With such a large proportion of foreign owners and managers in the PL, I'm not sure how likely that is. (That's not a comment with any motive behind it, it's just an observation).
I was pleased we did as well as we did, but let's not allow the positive press (for non-footballing reasons) to cover over our paucity in skills and tactics.
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Post by jimboslovechild on Jul 12, 2018 13:12:55 GMT
I think England have played very anxious, nervous and stunted football for a very long time. Part of that might be down to the media environment, which has probably made an England call-up feel very stressful at times in the past. Having a better relationship with the press makes very good sense and might mean England play with a little more freedom and creativity.
I know these are multi-millionaires, but they're also people who probably don't fancy being crucified in the tabloid press for a decade just because they misplaced a pass or fluffed a decent scoring chance.
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 13:17:12 GMT
Some very good points there, Eps/jlc.
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 14:34:20 GMT
At least we gave those skirt-wearing, alcohol-soaked, deep-fried block of Lard eating heart attacks waiting to happen Jocks something to cheer about last night - Lord knows they've had f*** all else to cling on to for the last twenty years. Here's to their next DNQ!  |
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Post by bigfudge on Jul 12, 2018 14:56:03 GMT
This England side definitely lacked the star-quality of previous England sides but all in all, I'd consider this a successful tournament, considering that many, including myself, were considering this a dress rehersal for future tournaments given how young this team was.
We may not have beat the Argies or the Germans etc but 2 years ago we lost to Iceland, before that in 2010 we drew with USA and Algeria, in 2002 we drew with Nigeria and in 2000 we lost to both Portugal and Romania...we're still clearly a way off where we need to be but as history has shown the so-called 'Golden Generation' would have choked in them sort of games...they'd have beat Panama 2-0, they'd have drawn 1-1 with Tunisia, lost in the shoot-out to Colombia, probably had a shoot-out with Sweden.
I much prefer this group of team-mates than a collection of talented individuals.
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Post by bigfudge on Jul 12, 2018 14:58:11 GMT
At least we gave those skirt-wearing, alcohol-soaked, deep-fried block of Lard eating heart attacks waiting to happen Jocks something to cheer about last night - Lord knows they've had f*** all else to cling on to for the last twenty years. Here's to their next DNQ! This will be proudly in their trophy cabinet, right beside Iceland's Euro 2016 win over us, Lampard's not given goal, winning 1-0 at Wembley in a 2-1 aggregate loss, a 2-2 draw at home last year and every flag of every country England have ever played. |
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Post by another_ruined_saturday on Jul 12, 2018 20:04:34 GMT
that's why they deserve nothing more than "7/10 - must do better". while i think that's a fair summation, f*** me mate, when was the last time you'd have given them seven out of ten? i know i wouldn't.
- iceland
- suarez on one leg. bottom of the group!
- nothing performances in the group, then pirlo singlehandedly ruined us
- germany capitulation after painful performance in a joke easy group, including wayne rooney slagging off the fans who had travelled there on camera after a draw against algeria
- DNQ
- paraguay, trinidad, f***ing sweden, sneaked past ecuador in the knock-outs, out on pens to walter mcwinky
- we're beating brazil! WE'RE BEATING BRAZIL!!......oh f*** off seaman
- beat germany and STILL didn't get out of the group. how is that possible?
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Post by another_ruined_saturday on Jul 12, 2018 20:09:34 GMT
so this is the most reasonable i've ever felt after england went out of a world cup.
yeah. they fell off a cliff after the first half. just didn't have enough. enough creativity, enough guile, enough game management, and surprisingly, enough energy. i'm disappointed, but not with them as usual...more just disappointed that they didn't have enough, and disappointed that we'll never get a route through the knock-out stages like that again. glad that we've got a decent man in charge when we could have had allardyce. glad that we were allowed to feel good about it for a bit. small fry, but then we're not the great footballing nation we should be.
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Post by another_ruined_saturday on Jul 12, 2018 20:11:50 GMT
they've reminded me of a more subdued liverpool a few times - start very strong, can't sustain it, no game management. and while i'm on the subject:
given what the internet thinks of him, dejan lovren: champions league finalist, world cup finalist...might be two losers' medals, but you'd have got some odds on that a few months ago...
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Post by Epworth Hatter on Jul 12, 2018 20:55:53 GMT
Nikola Kalinic was sent home after he refused to come on as a sub in Croatia’s first game against Nigeria.
I think he might be regretting that decision now, do you?
The size of his idiocy is only outstripped by his ego.
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 23:03:23 GMT
disappointed that we'll never get a route through the knock-out stages like that again. This ^^^ in my opinion... that's why they deserve nothing more than "7/10 - must do better". while i think that's a fair summation, f*** me mate, when was the last time you'd have given them seven out of ten? ... fully justified my stance on this ^^^ Failing to capitalise on this opportunity was criminal. I'm going to argue again that we struggled to beat Tunisia, beat a piss-poor Panama side and then decided that losing the Belgium game was in our best interests - something I still think was wrong. Then we struggled to put a clearly rattled Colombia side away in normal time, beat a disappointing Sweden side and then failed to put Croatia away when we had them on the ropes. I don't feel gutted anymore, I just feel annoyed that once again I was sucked in and let down - again. I was being generous with my '7/10', but I'll not change it because we won a match on penalties - I just think that making the final should have been expected if not demanded after the way everything panned out. |
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Post by another_ruined_saturday on Jul 13, 2018 23:12:39 GMT
not disagreeing really - more looking at the same things but more chilled out than i usually am about this stuff. i was talking to my dad about it tonight - i'm still disappointed, a draw will never fall for us like that again...but i've got sick of our failure to despatch teams i think we should beat and this time we did that all the way up to a semi-final. clearly in a normal world cup, we'd have played a big hitter (and a bigger hitter than croatia) sooner, and possibly gone down to them.
for 25 minutes we looked great against tunisia and didn't put them away. yet we still ended up with the three points. we don't always do that. we were the better side for probably 90 minutes out of 120 against columbia, and all thought it was over when henderson's pen was saved...yet the 'england lose on penalties' rule is another monkey gone. this isn't a 'golden generation', but i liked it more. i'm not going to fall out with them for not having enough big game experience, enough game management, enough guile to create more from open play...they just didn't have enough, but restored a bit of the faith that i've had eroded tournament after tournament. was still a terrific opportunity that they, in the end, didn't quite seize though.
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Post by gazz on Jul 13, 2018 23:43:57 GMT
not disagreeing really - more looking at the same things but more chilled out than i usually am about this stuff. i was talking to my dad about it tonight - i'm still disappointed, a draw will never fall for us like that again...but i've got sick of our failure to despatch teams i think we should beat and this time we did that all the way up to a semi-final. clearly in a normal world cup, we'd have played a big hitter (and a bigger hitter than croatia) sooner, and possibly gone down to them. for 25 minutes we looked great against tunisia and didn't put them away. yet we still ended up with the three points. we don't always do that. we were the better side for probably 90 minutes out of 120 against columbia, and all thought it was over when henderson's pen was saved...yet the 'england lose on penalties' rule is another monkey gone. this isn't a 'golden generation', but i liked it more. i'm not going to fall out with them for not having enough big game experience, enough game management, enough guile to create more from open play...they just didn't have enough, but restored a bit of the faith that i've had eroded tournament after tournament. was still a terrific opportunity that they, in the end, didn't quite seize though. I think that is a very fair summing up, mate.  |
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