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Post by gazz on Jul 11, 2018 21:55:12 GMT
As long as we're willing to applaud failure, we'll never succeed - that was not good enough.
In 1990, 5 years into the European football ban with nowhere near the amount of foreign players in the English game, we played against the mighty West Germans, went behind and then fought back to take them to a penalty shoot-out - that's why they were applauded. What they did that year was against all the odds.
This time around, with players who have all played European football in teams awash with European talent, we were 1-0 up with 22 minutes to go against a Croatia side that were ordinary and invited them to make a game of it and then offered nothing in extra time - that's why they deserve nothing more than "7/10 - must do better".
As I said before - Open top bus? f***ing behave - how is chucking away a place in the final by dominating a game for 68 minutes and then disappearing up our own backsides for the next 52 something to be "proud of"?
They failed from a winning position - there is no grey area here.
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Post by bringbacklenwhite on Jul 11, 2018 22:04:16 GMT
Best comment I have read tonight.........
We need to applaud the main person responsible for England making it all the way to the World Cup
semi-finals .................... the journalist who invited Big Sam out for a quiet lunch date !
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Post by dudleyhatter on Jul 11, 2018 22:06:10 GMT
At least I can use my World Cup final tickets now on Sunday. The athletics World Cup at the Olympic stadium that is.
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Post by gazz on Jul 11, 2018 22:11:02 GMT
We were found out tactically and technically I honestly don't think we were, mate - our squad depth and subs were our undoing, in my opinion. |
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Post by hermannsays on Jul 11, 2018 22:44:24 GMT
That's fair enough.
My view on the 1st half tactics was that we should have responded more effectively to Croatia's press to exploit the spaces their attacking central midfielders were leaving. Only Stones really seemed to grasp it early on (he pointed to Walker to go longer - their rather desperately retreating midfield then conceded the FK from which we scored). Surprisingly, Croatia didn't look at all composed after the goal (ie "we have a long time to get back into this") and ultimately that was our opportunity to pounce.
From the 2nd half on, we had absolutely no answers to them exploiting the weaknesses in our shape. As such, the substitutions had almost zero impact given they basically replaced personnel rather than ask questions of Croatia's tactics or solve our issues. There was no Plan B and, like I said against Belgium, it would have been useful to find one as the subs were never really likely to come on and be the answer.
Technically, I think it also looked quite clear that we struggled to retain possession - beyond our shape being any issue (ie too many poor touches/passes). Often we looked so out of control of our passing that we might be providing assists for Croatia. Even down to Walker's body shape (again), it is technique that isn't as high as it needs to be at this level.
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Post by gazz on Jul 11, 2018 23:08:17 GMT
We managed that game pretty well in the first half, H - the main problems aside from being over-reliant on Pickford, for me anyway, was that our outlet ball was to a player with pace who simply can't finish. Dele Alli was a huge let-down again too - it seems that we haven't quite rid the national side of big names that underperform for their Country.
Anyway, if we had taken our first-half chances these issues would not have been as significant - we'd have been out of sight by half-time had we put them away.
Our defence did ok in the first 45, it was our strikers that were found out and we paid for our lack of a killer punch.
Having said all this, going out now probably saved as a grade A arse kicking by the French - small mercies, eh?.
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Post by gazz on Jul 11, 2018 23:42:41 GMT
Let's not get carried away with this world cup, although it's understandable after reaching the Semis, but this team engineered an easier route to the final and still failed to get there.
However, look at who we actually faced and beat to get to the semis while avoiding the harder side of the draw.
- Injury time winner to beat Tunisia
- Panama were absolute garbage and County would have given them a game
- Failed to get anything against a heavily changed Belgium side with our own heavily changed side
- Only got past Colombia on penalties
- Beat a poor Sweden side
I'm sorry, but our progress has papered over what was a very, very ordinary run to the semis that, had we been the fantastic young lions the media made us out to be, we would have capitalised fully on our chance to reach the final after four of the fancied teams crashed out.
Regardless of what anyone else thinks, by my own personal expectations our failure to take our best chance since 1966 to reach the final really wasn't good enough.
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Post by jimboslovechild on Jul 12, 2018 6:07:04 GMT
I think that's a little bit unkind to Colombia and Sweden. Both are good teams who've achieved some decent results and were very competitive. They may not have megastars, but they play as a team which is far more valuable (as Herm said a while ago).
Disappointed but not surprised. Croatia had a goal threat from open play and we didn't. Alli and Sterling were both completely anonymous and we need more to aim at in the box if we're going to play wingbacks.
Youngest squad at the tournament, and our teams are doing well at youth level. Lots to feel positive about.
Great for Croatia, a tiny country with a difficult recent history. Hope they win it.
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 8:43:53 GMT
To be fair, jlc, it's not half as unkind as Southgate, his coaching staff, his players, the media and indeed people on here who referred to it as the "easier half of the draw".
Besides which, without trying to seem conceited, I honestly think I'm right. We had Colombia losing their discipline and looking desperate and beaten, then we failed to kill the game off and allowed them back in it - pretty much in the same way as we did last night with Croatia.
As for Sweden - forget what they did to get to the quarters, they still looked an ordinary side against us overall.
Aside from the 'unkindness' of my comments, I think that giving this team an open-top bus for failing to capitalise on the best chance of reaching a final for 52 years, with only 22 minutes to go, is ridiculous.
I'm fed up of the way we applaud failures such as this, because that's what it was - a failure.
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Post by hermannsays on Jul 12, 2018 9:36:22 GMT
It was certainly our best shot at doing something for a long time, even with an inexperienced side. The first side we faced to nullify our shape (Tunisia 2nd half) showed just what would happen without a Plan B. The first side with technical and tactical ability (Belgium) beat us. I don't think it's hard to imagine their B team getting at least a draw against our A team either. Armed with a fully rested A team and a Colombia missing their main man, it required Colombia ridiculously moving from their Plan B shape (that had got on top of us) to the first one that didn't work. This eased the pressure, helping us to get to penalties. Sweden tried a similar tactical approach to how they beat Italy and were able to create good chances. Overall though, and like most international teams we've watched, they're 'ok' and certainly lacked the quality of Japan or Brazil. Hence, it could have been all over a lot sooner if we were in the other half which, again, is simply another indication of where we are. Without Pickford's saves in the Sweden game, it would not have felt as 'comfortable' as it ended up feeling. I think my comments about last night (technique/tactics) are visually summed up here by the imbalance of our side versus the balance of their side, the pattern of their passing to work our shape's weaknesses - ultimately where both goals stemmed from. 11% XG v 65% too Edit: Zonal Marking's Michael Cox has written his piece for the Independent here: www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-england-vs-croatia-gareth-southgate-tactics-tactical-immaturity-final-a8443526.html |
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 10:54:44 GMT
Sorry, Herm, you can post all the pass maps you like - you and guys like that are seriously over-analysing this.
“Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better.” - Bill Shankly
I'm sick and tired of all these modern football stats, just keep better possession of the ball and the opposition can do less damage with it - there is no scientific theory to that. We gave the ball away far too cheaply by constantly passing back to Pickford, who in turn thumped it aimlessly into their half, giving them possession of the ball while we sat far too deep, which allowed them to come at us time and time again.
We should have changed our shape, yes, but by the time that became a factor they should have been at least 3-0 down had we taken our chances and we would have been in total control of the game. They upped the tempo significantly after they scored and had the bit between their teeth, they got a second wind - it's called adrenalin. We had no answer to it as too many of our players under-performed on the night.
I'm not even debating this anymore, we were an average side that failed to win a game by not taking our chances.
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Post by jimboslovechild on Jul 12, 2018 10:56:35 GMT
I don't think they should get an open top bus parade. I just think we did ok. We're not one of the best teams in the world, and got further than lots of teams who've got much better players to choose from.
For years, we've been moaning about not giving young players a chance, picking people based on reputation, playing people out of position to accommodate the big names etc. Now we've got what we wanted and reached a semi final, I think that's ok and we're going in the right direction.
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Post by gazz on Jul 12, 2018 11:01:13 GMT
I don't think they should get an open top bus parade. I just think we did ok. We're not one of the best teams in the world, and got further than lots of teams who've got much better players to choose from. For years, we've been moaning about not giving young players a chance, picking people based on reputation, playing people out of position to accommodate the big names etc. Now we've got what we wanted and reached a semi final, I think that's ok and we're going in the right direction. Now that, I totally agree with, mate. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I just can't see how there is anything to be proud of, and see no point in all these pass maps and stats - we failed to take our chances to kill them off in the first half and gave the ball away to them far too often, it's as simple as that for me. |
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Post by hermannsays on Jul 12, 2018 11:39:12 GMT
I don't think they should get an open top bus parade. I just think we did ok. We're not one of the best teams in the world, and got further than lots of teams who've got much better players to choose from. For years, we've been moaning about not giving young players a chance, picking people based on reputation, playing people out of position to accommodate the big names etc. Now we've got what we wanted and reached a semi final, I think that's ok and we're going in the right direction. Yup. There's the wider footballing context of having absolutely nothing at all to be proud of in the national sport for years and that's been coupled in recent times with a division within the country overall. Hopefully no-one feels proud of losing but I understand, and feel, a bit of pride in seeing mostly young and inexperienced (internationally) players give their best and buy into something. It's a huge contrast to previous sides. It doesn't make them good, great or anything like that and an open-top parade is a bit bizarre. Perhaps it is that wider context though, rather than any reaching of a semi-final, that has brought about those feelings in some people? |
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Post by hermannsays on Jul 12, 2018 11:40:45 GMT
Sorry, Herm, you can post all the pass maps you like - you and guys like that are seriously over-analysing this. But they're so pretty! |
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