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Post by forzablue on Dec 9, 2018 22:45:07 GMT
But how does it influence JG's constant barracking of players, inept tactics and mediocre on-field performances with one of the best squads in the division? He has what he has and should have done better IMO with the resources available to him.
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Post by hermannsays on Dec 9, 2018 22:56:50 GMT
Whatever the improved budget is, JG says he's put together a better squad than previous seasons and I think it's safe to say there are no Salfords, Fyldes or Harrogates in this league. Our squad now has more contact time which is where JG's experience/qualification should be helping. Plus, the majority of players didn't join in the summer so should be entirely up-to-speed with everything.
After the Mantack signing, JG was thanking the board for making additional resources available. The same was said in bringing in Osborne. We've also got Stott on loan. Thus the impression he gave was that extra money was already given to him.
But, 18 league games in, we're still being told that the players he's recruited don't listen (like in other seasons) and we're sitting on the same league tally as we were after 18 games last season. As with previous seasons, the answer to players not listening is to get new players in. That stage arrived quite early last season and we were rewarded with the arrival of... Bohan Dixon.
While the SB cup comment on the BBC ("All the money that comes in that's extra goes straight to the manager for players") surely does suggest more money is going to be made available (and I would still expect a couple of loan signings at least over coming months), we also have to be realistic that this is a 'club model' that hardly tries to hide that it runs us on a 'sustainable' basis. In fact, it's in almost all material they put out. Add to that we could have beaten Barnet, got a lucrative tie and the money goes to JG for players? Really?!
If it was any other manager, I doubt there would be any clamour to pass on more money for more players given all the above, especially when the manager is in his final contracted season.
All that said, even if you go along with running the club 'sustainably' (and clearly many don't and won't), there's no getting away from the fact that it's nonsensical to continue to avoid making a statement on our future which is based in reality rather than encouraging fans to stare at the mirage of a FL return. Plus, whether or not anyone agrees with him, JG has stated on about 130 interviews that we need to be FT to get out of this league. It's just bizarre for the board to keep putting it out there that they're waiting for his go-ahead to do it! What could possibly be the reason?!
So, after all that, its obvious that we'll finish 3rd and lose in the play-off final.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 4:32:59 GMT
Even if Jim were to get the full FA cash and get more bodies in, how long would it be before they were not listening and not following his methods? Maybe the board are keeping some funds which are invariably needed when a club appoints a new manager. Yes, and we know how well that went last time, don't we. How many more managers are we going to go through and how many more seasons are we going to spend at this level before you start to question the board, or is this just a Jim Gannon 'thing'? I'm not his biggest fan, but Dave Schofield wouldn't risk being sued for libel if there was no truth in this: "Project Salisbury
Posted by Dave - March Org on 8/12/2018, 1:17 pm
Matty asked what I meant earlier when I said we are where we are through choice, which surprised me tbh.
So, sorry for dragging a thread up to the top, but it is important that people understand what I mean by Project Salisbury (Sals-bu-ry for those on Twitter)
Chris Brammall asked me to help bail them out the night before the farcical £100* Season Ticket offer was due to end.
He wanted me to put out a PR campaign to clear that particular catastro#### up, which I was of a mind to do, but only if I understood the plan going forward, to which he said;
(Paraphrased but entirely accurate in content) "We are going to run the Club the same way Salisbury is. Zero cash from Owners, Club to be funded entirely by monies generated by supporters. £275,000 Playing budget next year, Club to settle at whatever level that May be "
I told him I could not support that, and that we are Stockport County not Salisbury.
Anything you are told to the contrary is bullsh*t, that is what said, that is what happened, and that is why we are where we are today.
Project Salisbury.
They are not bad people, it is not personal, they just ####ing terrible Owners, and they need to go before they cause any more harm.
*100 PLUS VAT
Seriously."members3.boardhost.com/marionsboard/thread/1544275045.htmlYou really need to look at the bigger picture here, because not only Jim is not responsible for where we are and how we got here, he's also up against that ^^^. Which is all very well and good but, it still doesn't answer my point which is, that however expensively or otherwise it's been assembled this is a decent squad of players that is woefully under-achieving.
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Post by gazz on Dec 10, 2018 7:47:25 GMT
You all need to be careful what you wish for, and your blinkered approach to the board/owners is absolutely astonishing. This is not just about Jim, it's about the number of managers that have tried, and failed, under this current regime - can you not see the pattern? I hope I don't have to refer to this discussion if Jim gets the bullet and it's all gone tits up again with his replacement. As for the budget, money is one thing, but if the players have full-time jobs away from the game, how can anyone expect them to perform week in/week out - how can you not grasp that? I'll ask again - how many more managers do we have to recycle before you begin to question the owners? Jim Gannon is a full-time manager and will only be able to perform to the best of his abilities with a full-time football club. His biggest mistake has been falling in love with this club, because it's probably the only reason he's still putting up with this kind of sh*te. If I were him I'd quit this sh*t show now and go find a proper job, because this club - and its fans - have been treading water for years now and are going nowhere - fast. You lot hope for his removal and I'll stay firmly in his corner, because I'm seeing the bigger picture. Some people just never learn.
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Post by gazz on Dec 10, 2018 8:01:07 GMT
this is a decent squad of players that is woefully under-achieving. So the fault must lie entirely with the manager and not his playing staff? So by your logic, if you were underperforming in your job you'd expect your boss to get the sack and not you? Have you even considered for one moment that Jim may actually be right in his assessment of these players and their failure to listen? What we're seeing with Jim, in my opinion, are the part-time frustrations of a full-time manager. You know what, maybe he isn't right for this club, not for the reasons you're alluding to - but for the fact that his ambitions and abilities far exceed those of this shell of a football club. I despair sometimes.
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Post by gazz on Dec 10, 2018 8:09:44 GMT
But how does it influence JG's constant barracking of players, inept tactics and mediocre on-field performances with one of the best squads in the division? He has what he has and should have done better IMO with the resources available to him. Yet another dig at the manager while offering no comment on my 'Project Salisbury' point.
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Post by countyfan on Dec 10, 2018 11:01:21 GMT
Everyone is entitled to their own options and people are making some valid points For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that the board are short sighted and their only focus is keeping the club going on a day to day basis, They aren't looking at the future and don't care if we get promotion or stay in the division for the next 10 years. As long as there is a SCFC to support then they are doing their jobs! It doesn't matter who is the manager of our club as long as there is no plans/goals to go back to full time and get back to being a league team then I personally can't see any good times returning soon unfortunately.
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Post by forzablue on Dec 10, 2018 13:06:12 GMT
Gazz, basically JG is a manager of a good squad of players who are continually underperforming season after season. There are other part time clubs who are doing much better than us, most with less funding. If it was the odd player or two then your scenario of not sacking the boss would hold true. In business if several employees underperform then re-training is indicated but if the whole company underperforms then guess who takes the responsibility? The only consistency since his return is his inability to turn the players HE has chosen and He has bought into contenders. No amount of rhetoric regarding the owners (true as it may be) can convince me that it impacts on what happens on a Saturday afternoon when its HIS eleven versus an opposing eleven. Particularly when the other teams are floundering beneath us (aka Nuneaton). What is it about JG that you think will turn this or next season around? Get rid of 50% of the squad he put together so he can replace them with other players who will still underperform? If we are bought out and in the unlikely event that the new owners consider keeping him on, would anyone trust JG with a greater budget (including the added costs of going FT) given his track record over the past 3 seasons? I certainly wouldn't. So sticking with JG irrespective of his performance as a manager, just because our previous managers have been less than optimal is, in my opinion, blind loyalty. It is based upon the hope that things may change. We need to be proactive rather than reactive. In other words, lets not wait until things have really gone, as you say "t*ts up", and change things now.
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Post by hermannsays on Dec 10, 2018 14:24:08 GMT
While I agree with plenty (too many excuses about things almost all teams at this level face, should be in a better position, too negative etc.) and think airing such thoughts is hardly a mind-blowing criticism, I truly hope that doesn't happen. And, unless things come to a head behind the scenes, I would be astonished if it did. First full season back = 8th place. Second = 5th. A contract offer for 2019/20 made in the summer on the back of that. FA Cup 2nd round for the first time in almost a decade.
If JG was removed, and even if we saw increased performance from the existing budget, it wouldn't alter the fact that, without new owners who can fund a FT NL budget, we cannot get back to the FL. However, as alluded to in the thread already, the catch for wanting new owners and wanting JG to remain is that new owners may well simply put in their own man.
There are plenty of games to play and, on every level, I think it's important to see out the season at the very minimum.
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Post by countyfan on Dec 10, 2018 14:35:17 GMT
Out of curiosity Forza, who would you like to see come in then if Jim was given the boot? An up and coming manager that has done wonders in the 15th tier of the football pyramid or an older manger coming back down the leagues still living on his past glory days?
Yeah this is Jim's current team he has chosen but he can only chose the players the board can afford! It's a bit like when you take the kids / grandkids to the arcade and you spend £50.00 winning 300 tickets on the machines. When you get to the prize box you realise 300 tickets buys you a polystyrene model airplane or a bouncy ball. Unfortunately the board won't let Jim win the 300000000 tickets he needs to win the Play Station!
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Post by gazz on Dec 10, 2018 15:43:52 GMT
Out of curiosity Forza, who would you like to see come in then if Jim was given the boot? An up and coming manager that has done wonders in the 15th tier of the football pyramid or an older manger coming back down the leagues still living on his past glory days? Yeah this is Jim's current team he has chosen but he can only chose the players the board can afford! It's a bit like when you take the kids / grandkids to the arcade and you spend £50.00 winning 300 tickets on the machines. When you get to the prize box you realise 300 tickets buys you a polystyrene model airplane or a bouncy ball. Unfortunately the board won't let Jim win the 300000000 tickets he needs to win the Play Station! Exactly, mate. It doesn't matter who comes in, they will almost certainly fail. Some of our fans are clinging onto the past and still see us as the 'big' club in this division - utter fantasy. Champagne expectations cannot be met and sustained with Lemonade money, it's as simple as that. We've had non-league 'specialists' come in and look what happened there, we've had and still have one of the best managers in this club's history and we're still in this division, so how is an up and coming manager going to change the dynamic with the same money and structure? People asking for Jim's head are putting no thought into it whatsoever. Forget the stadium, forget the history, forget the crowds we get - this club does not have the wherewithal to match the ambitions of the manager. We may have big ambitions, but in reality we're just tenants renting a massive house with barely enough money left to furnish the place. No matter who you want in, they will almost certainly fail, because this board are financing the club to STAND STILL, what can't people see about that? How many more managerial failures will it take for people to wake up and realise that we're being sold a pup? Tell you what, forget that last question because I've asked already and it just gets dismissed. There are none so blind....
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Post by gazz on Dec 10, 2018 15:53:49 GMT
If JG was removed, and even if we saw increased performance from the existing budget, it wouldn't alter the fact that, without new owners who can fund a FT NL budget, we cannot get back to the FL. However, as alluded to in the thread already, the catch for wanting new owners and wanting JG to remain is that new owners may well simply put in their own man. This is a very good point, H. I fully agree that, should new owners come in with the money to take this club forward, they may want their own choice of manager - I absolutely expect and accept that. What I won't accept is fans who just want Jim removed without any suggestion of who will replace him, nor any thought regarding who has gone before him and how badly they also failed under the same ownership. Jim may make excuses and get things wrong from time to time, but while you're all on here getting the knives out for him, the owners are still ripping you all off while kicking back and enjoying the peace and quiet.
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Post by forzablue on Dec 10, 2018 16:40:11 GMT
Gazz, the bottom line here is simple: JG isn't getting anywhere near the best out of his players when compared to other teams in the division with lesser resources. If he blames his players for whatever reason, then by association he must take at least some of the blame because he brought them in.
I honestly believe that if Jim were to praise his players more, especially during games and reinforce the positives rather than keep bleating about the negatives, then he would get more out of them and have a significantly more motivated squad than at present. I don't know anyone in any walk of life who doesn't feel better when patted on the back and told "well done".
As regards who could replace him, I could mention a few names but its pointless as everyone has their own opinion, Its up to the board to see who fits the criteria and who they can afford. I have nothing personal against JG and would have loved him to succeed as much as anyone. Taking the politics out of the equation, football is a results-based industry and so any prudent owners should act to improve the results both in the short term and, in. our case, with the help of increased funds/new owners in the long term too.
Therefore, at what point would you deem JG a failure and ask the same sort of questions that have been on this forum in recent times? Bottom half, bottom 3, relegation? Surely there must come a time when even you must doubt JG's abilities?
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Post by countyfan on Dec 10, 2018 16:49:39 GMT
Forza, you say it's nothing personal against Jim but the most you post the more I think you just want him out regardless!
OK not naming any names do these managers you'd like to see fit in to the bracket of A) up and coming from a lower division, B) Managed at a higher level but been out of work for a while or C) currently managing another team and you think we could persuade him to leave that position and come to us?
The point I would deem Jim a failure is once we've had a season back as FT and Jim is the only boss the players have instead of their day to day job bosses!
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Post by forzablue on Dec 10, 2018 17:29:27 GMT
I really don't have anything against Jim. I'm a fairly pragmatic person so its success for SCFC before loyalty to anyone else (club legends included), even if that means changing manager. I don't think a young unproven manager would work under the pressures of our club, so I'd go for someone with experience, particularly in this division so Alun Armstrong or Matt Jansen spring to mind but no doubt these will split opinions!
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